The Death of the Old man!

And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Gal5:24

knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. Rom6:6

John Wesley Said:
We have already died provisionally with Christ through our participation in Christ crucified; now we must permit that death to reach to the very depths of our being as we cease from self and begin to live wholly to God. The death of the "old man" is thus a process initiated by conversion and realized in sanctification. "In principle" we die with Christ in justification; in full reality we die with Him when we yield up ourselves to God as Jesus gave up His spirit to the Father on the Cross

Which is Correct?
In Salvation do we Die in 'Principle' with Christ, or in Actuality to our old man of sin? In the Present day church EVERYONE seems to believe that the New Birth is Positional and that the Old Man dies by Process over a life time. (as you can see below from the many answers from pastors) But what does the Bible Really have to Say about this?

A simple observation of the passages quoted above CLEARLY expresses the fact that the Flesh has ALREADY been Crucified and Put to Death for those who are in Christ. 'Have Crucified' and 'Was Crucified' Surly denotes an event that has already taken place, NOT a Process over a long period of time. In the Original Language of the Passage Paul is expressing this in the 'aorist tense' of the Greek. Speaking of an event that has taken place in the Past, NOT to be Repeated!
He is NOT speaking of something that is happening by Degree. The emphasis is on particular action that has a definite beginning and end in a point of time. This Event, the Crucifixion of the flesh, has already taken place and will not be repeated. (Thus the reason for Heb10:26 Crucifying Him afresh when you sin against your knowledge of the Truth!)

The Problem in understanding this Fundamental concept of Salvation today is that Everyone is being brought into the Kingdom WITHOUT going through the Process of Genuine Repentance, whereby the Old Man is Crucified and the New Man is Born! Observe WHEN this is happening according to Romans 6:4-6
We Were Buried with Him in Baptism, into His Death
Raised with Him to Newness of Life
United Together with Him in Likeness
Our Old Man was DONE AWAY With!

This is Describing the BAPTISM OF REPENTANCE that Takes Place in the PROCESS of Conviction and godly sorrow for sin, followed by a Clearing of Wrong Doing, a Diligent Zeal to DO what is Right with Fear and PURITY of Heart! (2Cor7:10-11) John Wesley has it WRONG, the pastors are mistaken! The ONLY reason they THINK the whole Process is Positional is that NO ONE is REPENTING of their sin! They are being told that God will Save them In their Sins and Clean them up Later by changing their desires by degree. BUT THIS was Suppose to Happen in Repentance! You Cannot Teach someone to DO what is Right if they have NEVER DONE What is Right to BEGIN With! Unless the Old Man Dies with Christ in Repentance your Desires will NEVER really Change. You may Fashion yourself into a 'Christian' but inside you will remain Double-Minded and Divided in heart. (waiting for God to magically clean you up!)

This Explains the failure of all the so-called Revivals and why they never took hold or lasted for any length of time. When the emotional euphoria wore off, so did the Fake Christianity. Because it was not Based on True Repentance and Faith, but merely a Confession of Sinfulness and Transfer of Trust. So our churches have become cesspools of immorality and worldliness. What is proposed to be happening to the the so-called New Converts, the Putting off of the flesh by degree over time, NEVER reaches fruition. There is no ROOT in them. The Seed was Planted among the Thorns of an un-repented heart and Cannot bear fruit! They spring up, believe for a while (Luke8:13) and quickly wither away in the sun.

Every Pastor seems to think that the sinning people in his church are really Christians struggling with the flesh and he presents the Scriptures to them in just such a manner as to support this false notion. But what he Doesn't Understand and probably has Not experienced himself is a genuine death of the Old man in Repentance as described in the Bible. ONLY Then will the New Man be able to Partake of the Divine Nature, Exceeding Promises and Power of Faith and live a PURE life in God. Otherwise the conflict continues, the Rom7 lie of Wretched Christianity, the Hypocrisy and Addiction. So instead of Looking to Righteousness and Purity as the Witness of the Saints, it's SIN from start to finish. One excuse after another to support the Lie.

Examples of Questions and Answers from Present Day Pastors:

On 10/2/07 6:38 PM, Does a person have to crucify the old man in order to get saved? Thanks, DC

Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 10:03 PM